August 2010 Fastrack

[Dano77]

Now I might be missing something but, 12a rotary,street port with stock nikki OR auto type 2 barrell with 38mm chokes 2350 in STU minus 50 for solid/live rear axle=2300

12a NO PORTING NO alt carb No mods at all 2600 + 2.5% FOR rwd in STL


Did I miss something or is it just easier to go STU with a first gen and mod the crap out of it...

Dan
77 IT7
Fireing up the die grinder now.........

[Chip42]

josh,
STL is separate from STU. IT cars are split at the 2L mark when they come to play but cars built to the rule sin STU can still be 2.0L and below. they didn't kill that. good luck getting to weight, but it's allowed.

travis - some will go apeshit spending and building hand grenades, others will just enjoy the opportunity to run swaps - see honda challenge for an idea about the popularity there. the "kids" are big on swaps, they know a good motor when they see it. sure, it's an imperfect class structure. what isn't. IT doesn't attract younger people as much as something like STU (L is a nice mid ground). I get where you're coming from, but I think you might be over reacting. the rules certainly could pull entrants from prod and IT, and that is a shame. both are great classes (with some spec line exceptions) and it sucks that there's a limited number of competitors. but this is GOOD for the growth of the club. could it have been done differently? yes. IT swaps to IT prep with similar weighting rules would be one way (honda challenge style). but you will never shake my belief that this is one path to increasing "tuner" participation. look what the bootleggers did for NASCAR, the hot rodders for drag racing, ans the WWII vets did for sportscars. it's time to bring the current automotive movement IN to the club. if you don't want to play with them, stay in ITA.

like I said before, it's nice to have options.

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally Posted by Chip42

josh,
STL is separate from STU. IT cars are split at the 2L mark when they come to play but cars built to the rule sin STU can still be 2.0L and below. they didn't kill that. good luck getting to weight, but it's allowed.

travis - some will go apeshit spending and building hand grenades, others will just enjoy the opportunity to run swaps - see honda challenge for an idea about the popularity there. the "kids" are big on swaps, they know a good motor when they see it. sure, it's an imperfect class structure. what isn't. IT doesn't attract younger people as much as something like STU (L is a nice mid ground). I get where you're coming from, but I think you might be over reacting. the rules certainly could pull entrants from prod and IT, and that is a shame. both are great classes (with some spec line exceptions) and it sucks that there's a limited number of competitors. but this is GOOD for the growth of the club. could it have been done differently? yes. IT swaps to IT prep with similar weighting rules would be one way (honda challenge style). but you will never shake my belief that this is one path to increasing "tuner" participation. look what the bootleggers did for NASCAR, the hot rodders for drag racing, ans the WWII vets did for sportscars. it's time to bring the current automotive movement IN to the club. if you don't want to play with them, stay in ITA.

like I said before, it's nice to have options.

I'm sure the S-2000 can get down to 2100lbs with the Carbon composite hood, trunk, custom glass top, or trade some weight room for a full intake and head port, and a sequential box. A full built car to this rule set will be expensive. The euro racing version of the M-42 made 300-315hp that's 158hp/ltr....

[JoshS]

Originally Posted by Chip42

josh,
STL is separate from STU. IT cars are split at the 2L mark when they come to play but cars built to the rule sin STU can still be 2.0L and below. they didn't kill that. good luck getting to weight, but it's allowed.

I was actually coming here just now to correct myself, I did in fact get confused. Seems like an STL car could easily be built to also be legal for STU. My bad.

I still say that the only car worth bringing to STU (except for maybe turbos, I'm not sure) is the S2000.

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally Posted by JoshS

I was actually coming here just now to correct myself, I did in fact get confused. Seems like an STL car could easily be built to also be legal for STU. My bad.

I still say that the only car worth bringing to STU (except for maybe turbos, I'm not sure) is the S2000.

There might be a couple of other options, they'll be expensive and lots of development will be needed, but they'll be on the smaller end of the spectrum too. To match an oe s-2000 motor a 2.5liter motor would need to make 350hp, I doubt that's possible without forced induction

[Chip42]

Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar

I'm sure the S-2000 can get down to 2100lbs with the Carbon composite hood, trunk, custom glass top, or trade some weight room for a full intake and head port, and a sequential box. A full built car to this rule set will be expensive. The euro racing version of the M-42 made 300-315hp that's 158hp/ltr....

ST will be more expensive then IT - yes. STU more so, and STO pretty much requires manufacturer support.

as for weight I was really referring to the <2.0L stuff in STU. I think that there will wind up being very strong builds aside from the S2000

[quadzjr]

AS the rules are written, currently. Unless someone spends a metric shit ton.. STO will be dominated by a anybody that is a "decent" driver in an good WC GT car. STU will be dominated by any decent driver in an WC TC. STL we will see, I see two very potent looking combinations and both are acura/honda.

[Knestis]

>> ... I think that there will wind up being very strong builds aside from the S2000.

It's a pretty simple formula, actually. (I know because Greg A told me at WGI.) With a weight-to-displacement structure, all other things being equal, you pick the engine with the highest horsepower/cc - and that's an S2000. The only way this would be different is if the weight multiplier were such that a 2-liter car couldn't get to minimum weight, which it looks like it can.

K

[tnord]

Originally Posted by Chip42

josh,
travis - some will go apeshit spending and building hand grenades, others will just enjoy the opportunity to run swaps - see honda challenge for an idea about the popularity there. the "kids" are big on swaps, they know a good motor when they see it. sure, it's an imperfect class structure. what isn't. IT doesn't attract younger people as much as something like STU (L is a nice mid ground). I get where you're coming from, but I think you might be over reacting. the rules certainly could pull entrants from prod and IT, and that is a shame. both are great classes (with some spec line exceptions) and it sucks that there's a limited number of competitors. but this is GOOD for the growth of the club. could it have been done differently? yes. IT swaps to IT prep with similar weighting rules would be one way (honda challenge style). but you will never shake my belief that this is one path to increasing "tuner" participation. look what the bootleggers did for NASCAR, the hot rodders for drag racing, ans the WWII vets did for sportscars. it's time to bring the current automotive movement IN to the club. if you don't want to play with them, stay in ITA.

like I said before, it's nice to have options.

i know you don't know me chip, but i'm one of those "tuner kids." well, i'll be 30 this year so maybe not anymore, but i was 24 when i joined the club, and came from the HPDE reigns.

citing honda challenge as a reason to create this class isn't exactly helping your case. first off, honda challenge has all but died off and gone away across most of the country. and second, until recently the only honda challenge class that allowed motor swaps was H1, and that played out exactly as i mentioned before. a decent number of people thought it was fun to put the 1.6 160hp B16A2 motor from the 99-02 civic si into old CRXs and old civic hatchbacks. that was all well and good until someone put the 190hp B18C5 in there from the Integra Type R. ok fine, now everyone has to sell their B16A2 for $2k and buy a B18C5 for $4k....big deal. But then some dude with big wallets went and got one of the 2.0 200hp K20 motors from the RSX....and then another guy wanted more torque so he got a 210hp K24 from the TSX.....and before too long (i'd say 2 or 3 years) the H1 field went from about 8-10 cars to 1 or 2.

attracting youth and classifying more modern cars is good for the club i agree, but all we're doing here is cannibalizing our own classes, moving the drivers to different ones, reducing the amount of actual racing going on out there, and decreasing the interest level of people like myself who came for the racing....and the racing alone. take the racing componenet out of the club (which it seems we're trying very, very hard to do) and it becomes nothing but a stupidly expensive HPDE.

[JeffYoung]

Have to agree with Travis. To me, this looks like an attempt to lure drivers from IT, not an attempt to lure new drivers.

[quadzjr]

Originally Posted by JeffYoung

Have to agree with Travis. To me, this looks like an attempt to lure drivers from IT, not an attempt to lure new drivers.

I also agree, look at the amount of IT drivers just thinking about going STO/U/L.. is that going to be equilvant to the number of new members looking at entering IT? I imagine a good bit of prod members are doing the same thing.

As stated on RRAX by Peter Keane.

"As you may know, I was a big supporter of IT going National. After several years of trying to get IT National, I realized it was not going to happen. With the success of STU (currently 10th in National participation) we decided to try to get the smaller bore IT type cars into National competition. I hope to works out."

It also states in the propsed rules STL was created to alow IT drivers a chance to experience the "national" scene.

"While IT cars may not be competitive in the ST category, competition within their inclusion in the category will
allow regional competitors to experience a participate in national events."

[mossaidis]

I agree 100% with travis. Will SCCA kill Prod then? Leave us IT folks at the regional ranks forever? Do I really have to run a SSB/C car to race Nationally at a "reasonable" cost?

[Rabbit07]

All,

Please write your letters for and against the ST rules and STL. I am one of the committe members and quite exited about it myself. We need your input. There are reason why the rules are they way they are now, but most of that is from the committees perspective. Please let us know constructively what you like or don't

Thanks

[tnord]

it's real simple Chris.

don't make new classes that futher dilute the field. the CRB/BOD hasn't understood this as long as i've been a member. i don't know why me writing yet another letter would change anything.

[JeffYoung]

Chris, first, as a fellow committee member (ITAC) -- thanks for your efforts on this. Much appreciated. Committee work is hard thankless work.

On my side, I would (respectfully) ask if any of this was run by the ITAC? I don't think it was and not saying it HAD to be, but perhaps it should have been?

I'm speaking solely for myself, but this looks like (to me) an attempt to draw IT cars into a National class after I think a majority of IT drivers made it clear they did not want to "go national." It could, in my view, create the dilution Travis mentions, primarily via IT drivers leaving to join STL, and maybe asking the ITAC for input would have been a good idea.

That said, I agree with the general concept. We need a place for modern cars with a more open rule set that Touring or SS to race.

I just think it would have made sense to coordinate that with the IT folks, since they seem to be the target for this.

[Rabbit07]

Not all IT competitors didn't want to go national. Some wanted this and wanted to be rid of the washer bottle argument. The fact that STU numbers this year are way up is tell tale. The majority of the cars competing in STU this year have been IT or Spec Miatas. I know this as a fact because I have ran races all year from Sebring to the Glen and have seen the participants and stopped to talk to them. So really the majority of STU competitors this year could have been STL competitors. Keep in mind that drawing IT cars is not the only idea. Drawing from the NASA PT classes was in mind here also.

Personally I don't think this is diluting the fields, it's filling them.

[EV]

Originally Posted by Rabbit07

......Drawing from the NASA PT classes was in mind here also.

A great idea, but you have to look hard at how NASA PT works. The PT power to weight (not cc per weight) is a better formula with the Dyno being used to level the field.

Of course, PT is thought of as a budget class, but I am thinking budget isn't what ST is focused on.

[PSherm]

Originally Posted by Rabbit07

Not all IT competitors didn't want to go national. Some wanted this and wanted to be rid of the washer bottle argument. The fact that STU numbers this year are way up is tell tale. The majority of the cars competing in STU this year have been IT or Spec Miatas. I know this as a fact because I have ran races all year from Sebring to the Glen and have seen the participants and stopped to talk to them. So really the majority of STU competitors this year could have been STL competitors. Keep in mind that drawing IT cars is not the only idea. Drawing from the NASA PT classes was in mind here also.

Personally I don't think this is diluting the fields, it's filling them.

What I have seen here in the Midiv (Trav, what's your take?) at least has been ALL double dipping by IT guys, either for the available extra track time or contingency $. And there hasn't been a lot of them. I don't see ST* as a good thing for club racing in general, and I personally can't see spending more money on my ITA car to add more weight to it.

I *might* feel differently if all the Miatae leave ITA though.....

[Chip42]

Moral dillema: PK is involved in ST.

I honestly think ST is a class that is right for the times.

prod is not really "modern" but efforts have been succesful in making it more-so. sTL and limited prep are so simillar that I would think they could find a way to combine them. that WAS the way to graduate to nationals for IT guys, remember? and even with the extra cost, the politics are much more palitable.

IT is in decline because part of its membership wants to run nationally, part wants to stay regional. some want to keep the rules restrictive and simple, and some want to move toward prod (st?). the rules makers have to balance this, and it leaves them in a stale mate. and they go back and forth about addressing existing classifications (both under and overdogs)which leaves many in the membership confused and frustrated.

I agree with Travis and others: it sucks that ST will pull from IT and P - both have a long history and are great classes in theory. car gcounts going down means less racing and more open passing lapping day for everyone.

The CRB and membership are both to blame for the decline in IT as much or more than any new class. don't blame the class if it ATTRACTS people away from IT. thsoe people wanted to go that way. Others want to stay in the SS+ mindset.

as for going national - the only benefit I can see is that nat classes get better attention from the PTB than regional classes. racing in nationals isn't necessarily any better, and I personally have a lot more fun at regionals.

and money - look, we live in a competitive society. people will spend as much as they can afford to win at all costs if thats what they ar einclined to do. it doesn't matter what class. we have competitors with ongoing motor programs and engine builders on call in FP that we race against with our shoestring operation, and they walk us. we all watch the same happen in certain fields of IT. sT will be no different. it isn't the classes' fault, it's the racer's. if we all wanted to drive cheap fun racecars, "SBC" would have been taken seriously.

[tnord]

Bullshit Chris.

March 27th Saint Louis STU Entries - 0
March 28th - 2; Chris Albin & Ralph Woodard. Both are actually IT cars.

April 10th Hallett STU Entries - 0
April 11th - 0

April 17th MAM STU Entries - 1 (an actual Honda Challenge car, whooopeee!!! oh but wait....it's running significantly slower than SM or ITA.)
April 18th - 2 (the same HC guy and a guy in what looks like an ITA car to me)

May 1 HPT STU Entries - 0
May 2 - 3 (two of them known IT cars, one guy actually does have an ex-WC car that he used to run ITE)

May 16th Saint Louis STU Entries - 1 (known ITA car)
May 17th - 1 (same ITA car)

May 22nd MAM - 1 (known ITA car)
May 23rd - 2 (both IT cars)

June 5th HPT - 1 (known IT car)
June 6th HPT - 2 (both IT cars)

July 3rd Hallett - 2 (one known, one guy i've never heard of in an old RX7 turning very slow times. i bet i can guess what class it really should be in)
July 4th Hallett - 2 (both unknown guys in slow, old RX7s.)


soooo......we've got what, 2 sorta legit entries in STU so far this year? well done club leadership. in fact, it's such a big success, lets EXPAND the category and add STL, so that one of those two guys in STU can go win "races" in STL!!!